Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: You're listening to the Spear, a podcast about the combat experience from the Modern War Institute at West point,
[00:00:10] Speaker B: more than 100 meters outside the village.
You were definitely getting in a firefight.
[00:00:14] Speaker A: My first patrol I took, we had
[00:00:17] Speaker B: a far ambush and then it was just a huge explosion.
The primary threat was RKG3 grenades, like machine guns and AK47s, that kind of thing. Small arms fire, RPG fire, explosively fire, penetrators, suicide bombs.
And then that's about the time that the third IED went off. And that's when another grenade comes spinning over the side of the wall. And it's at that point the IED chain detonates.
There was enemy in the wire.
[00:00:48] Speaker C: There's all these Humvees on fire.
[00:00:49] Speaker A: It was truly bullets flying from every angle that you could see.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: I open the door and look outside and all I see is muzzle flashes.
There's a guy on top with a 240 and the rounds passed right past his head.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: At that point, our instincts kicked in.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: One pilot on the controls, the other
[00:01:06] Speaker A: pilot was using his M4 to engage
[00:01:08] Speaker B: single man targets on the ground. You're shooting at everything.
It was a fight.
[00:01:18] Speaker C: Welcome back to the Spear. Today's guest is retired Command Sergeant Major Kurt Donaldson, the former Regimental Command Sergeant Major of the 75th Ranger Regiment. Kurt, welcome to West Point and welcome to the show.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: Thanks, sir. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:30] Speaker C: Kurt, you deployed to combat in places like Iraq and Afghanistan more than 20 times, and I'm looking forward to us getting into some of those stories. But first, what brings you to West Point today?
[00:01:39] Speaker B: I got invited to be the guest speaker at the Infantry Ball this evening. Happy to be here.
[00:01:43] Speaker C: Have you done the Infantry Ball here before?
[00:01:45] Speaker B: I have not.
[00:01:45] Speaker C: I hear you're in for a treat.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: It should be a good time. Should be a good time.
[00:01:49] Speaker C: So, Kurt, speaking of West Point, Colonel Mike Klepper, West Point's Brigade Tactical Officer, described you as one of our Army's best contemporary leaders. What does being a leader look like to you?
[00:01:58] Speaker B: I think first you got. You got to care about your people. You can, you can kind of fake it till you make it in a lot of jobs, but you can't fake caring about your folks. If your folks know you give. Give a shit about them and they'll. They'll go to the ends of the earth to, to get stuff done for you. So first you got to care about them and, and two, you know, you got to hold them accountable, hold your. Hold yourself accountable first, and then. I don't want to ruin My speech tonight. But the. You got to hold them account. You hold yourself accountable first and then hold your sp. Accountable. Caring about your folks isn't coddling them. It's, you know, knowing what the standards are and holding everyone in your. In your unit accountable for their actions.
And I think sometimes people think caring. Caring is letting someone off work early or overlooking a. You know, whatever they're overlooking. But I think it's either fix something straight away than it is to let something kind of brew for a while and then try to get back on the. On the backside. It's like good parenting, right?
You know, the kid. The kid in the checkout line. If, you know, if you do this one more time, you know, my kids didn't get it one more time, you know? Yeah. I think first you got to care about them, and you can't. You can't fake that. And then your actions have to support. You can't just care about somebody and not do it. You know, your actions have to support.
[00:03:13] Speaker C: Kurt, you had a long and distinguished career in the US army, most of which was spent in the Ranger Regiment. Why did you choose to join the army, and what was your path to becoming a Ranger?
[00:03:21] Speaker B: I graduated high school in 1996, and I had. I had a relative that was a combat engineer. And I'd always kind of wanted to join the Army, So I went to Northern Bedford High School, middle school, high school. It's small, so it's one building, but I don't know if they still do it. But in 7th, 9th, and 12th grade, they ask you what you want to be. And in 7th, 9th, and 12th, I put Army Ranger along those lines. October 34th, 1993, I watched Service members get drugged through the streets in Mogadishu. And I was like, I want to.
I want to go be a Ranger. And my path was I had a relative. It was actually a small town. So my recruiter, Jim hall, came back recruiting duty to Bedford, Pennsylvania.
And I don't know what it was called at the time now, it would be an option 40 contract.
So, you know, 11x option 40 and basic AIT at Fort Benning. Went to Airborne School. And then fall of 96, I attended the Ranger indoctrination program.
And when I graduated, I was assigned to 3rd Platoon Seco 375.
[00:04:26] Speaker C: On JRTC's the Crucible podcast, you described a fighting platoon sergeant. Can you explain that concept to our audience?
[00:04:33] Speaker B: I can. So it's not an original thought. Mike hall came up with it. Him and Stan McChrystal General McChrystal back in the day, bit in the Ranger Regiment, and I'm, you know, I'm really proud of, to be a Ranger Regiment alumni.
The platoon sergeant does the majority of maneuvering, meaning the platoon. The platoon leader is somewhere where he can, he can see what's going on and he can very quickly take charge and get things done. But the platoon leader is at a vantage point where, where he controls all the assets.
So he's basically orchestrating the, the chaos. And the platoon sergeant is up behind the lead squad maneuvering.
If it's movement to contact, he's outmaneuvering pl, setting conditions. If it's cqb, the platoon sergeant follows the lead squad in the building. He's the hall boss. He'll call the next squad up to follow and assume when you're not actively clearing, you can kind of see what's been cleared and what hasn't been cleared and kind of direct traffic to scale that up. The first sergeant, if you're doing breach of a mind wire obstacle into a trench line, first sergeant moves to the breach, and he's controlling the flow of platoons in.
And basically you're taking your. The premise of it is you're taking your senior soldier in that platoon who should know the most, and he maneuvers the squads while the PL sets conditions. That would be like boiling it right down. That's not to take anything away from the platoon leader, but it's really hard to be a platoon leader in the Ranger regiment and have the assets that you have and be behind the lead squad. It's. There are some folks out there can do it, but not a lot. That doesn't mean the pl. That does not. I'm not saying the platoon leader is in the back, you know, with no job to do. The PL in contact doesn't do anybody any good. So he needs to be kind of one move back at good vantage point.
[00:06:20] Speaker C: So what types of things are the platoon leaders doing and controlling while the platoon sergeant is managing the fight forward?
[00:06:26] Speaker B: So the platoon leader is watching forward line of troops. He's making sure that the shift fire are called and shift, shift and lift.
And the response. He's making sure, hey, you know, the support by fire actually shifted.
Hey, hey. The, the, the, the mortar rounds that we were going to have at this phase line have impacted. We're not clear to move. He's bake. He's basically the orchestrator of this, this, this dance we're doing. Right? He's, he's back there making, making sure Things are, are going according to plan.
[00:06:56] Speaker C: So he's more focused on the radio than his personal weapon for most of the fighting.
[00:07:00] Speaker B: Yeah. If the PL's firing his, firing his weapon, there's probably a, you know, unless he's doing like immediate self defense, there's probably a problem. Okay, not the pls can't shoot, but it's like I need the PL on the radio.
That's his most casualty producing weapon.
[00:07:15] Speaker C: Absolutely.
Let's talk a little bit about your career inside the Ranger Regiment. So you spent majority of your career there. Eventually you were assigned as the senior enlisted advisor for the entire regiment. You were the rcsm. What other positions did you hold in the Ranger Regiment? And what was that progress like?
[00:07:35] Speaker B: So I showed up to three Charlie and I was assigned a weapon squad. I was about £150 and they always, and for whatever reason, Charlie company put the smallest guys in weapon squad. I'm not sure why that was. I got there with a guy named Palmer and He was like 65 and he went to a bike squad and I went to a weapon squad to carry heavy things. But basically I grew up in weapon squad, a bag gunner. And then the regiment does gun team leaders. We're basically the senior guy is directing fires and the next senior guy is shooting the 240 or 48.
From there I went to be a fire team leader in first squad and then I was third squad leader, line squad leader back to weapons squad leader. Then I culminated in SECO as the AT Anti Tank section sergeant slash and the regiment. The senior. If the FS NCO is senior to the AT nco, he's the headquarters platoon sergeant. Or if the AT guy is senior to the fsnco, he's the headquarters platoon sergeant from there.
Back in the day before GWAT, you had to go be a staff NCO. 2003, I went across the street to battalion. I was Air NCO for the battalion and I did about 18 months in that, in that job.
After my staff time, I went to AO375. I was the 2 Alpha Platoon Sergeant from 05 to 07.
And again you got to go back and do staff stuff. So I went back across the street to be the liaison NCO and the regiment, it's future plans. So the liaison officer, which is a major, the regiment's a little bit different.
They have three majors instead of two. So a major shows up, he's the L and O. He does all the future planning and then he executes that plan as the three.
And then when you're done with the three, you move to the xo. And if you're senior, they pick guys to go up to be, you know, the regimental field grades. But it's a really good model.
So you plan your training, you execute your training and then you're the xo.
Basically you travel around with the officer setting up training and then you go out and run backside once the training commences as the LNO NCO.
From there I was en route 175 to be a first sergeant and Rick Merritt, who was also an RSM, he was the Special Troops Battalion CSM at the time.
His ops got picked up to go to the academy. And I got diverted a day after I sold my house and I was homeless. I got diverted for nine months to be the RSTB ops sergeant major as a junior master sergeant.
I got promoted I think one September of 08.
So I did that for about nine months, which was actually super helpful when I went first sergeant job.
At the time the STB was spread all across the globe and it was basically a captain and I running, running the STB and one field grade that would be around if he wasn't deployed. That the commander who was actually Mingus at the time, General Mingus was the commander. Rick Merritt was CSM. And then after, after that I went down the 1st Battalion. I had D175 from 10 to 12.
The regiment still has. From there I went to the S2 NCYC position. The army kind of did away with 11 series in charge of the S2 shops. The regiment has not. I mean, I'm pretty sure they haven't at the time they didn't. So I was the S2NCYC and I got picked up on the Serb major list. I think in 13 I went to Josofse, which is the Joint Special Operations Forces Enlisted Academy in Tampa. It's I think it's six months online, two months in and then at the time you still had to do a non resident Usasma. So I got to do two, two sergeant major screens while I was trying to be the ops surgeon major at 175. So I came back from that. I was the opsrag major at 175from 14 to 16.
And then I had never left. I did 20 years there gym. If you didn't get fired, you kind of had a job.
And then I think it was the vice chief basically said, hey, start doing Abrams charter again. They never stopped doing Abrams charter. They just did a really poor job of advertising it. So I did 20 years there. And then they're like, hey, congratulations. You did a great job. You gotta leave. And they made a rule that you can't be a first Sergeant or a CSM unless you left, which is great.
[00:11:58] Speaker C: Oh, wow. Okay.
[00:12:00] Speaker B: And So I competed CSL, made the CSL list, and I went to 282 under Pat Work. I was 2 fury 2508 CSM at 2A2. And I. I called. I knew. I knew a major up there, regiment guy, and I called and I said, hey, can you send me the.
Can you send me the training calendar? And he sent it. And this was like, summer of 16.
And it stopped in December.
And I emailed him back. I was like, hey, I think you're missing a. Missing a sheet. This thing, this calendar stops in December. And he was like, oh, yeah, we're going to Mosul for nine months in December.
And I was like, that was a nice conversation to have with the wife.
I just sacked from deployment, and I'm PCs and to go deploy for nine more months. I don't know how many deployments I had at the time, but it was a little bit. A little bit of deployments, but basically got the 82nd, got there in July.
I went out and my first training event was like the day after my change responsibility.
I knew the brigade commander, Pat Work, and I knew my battalion commander, and that was about it.
And I went out and I did a live fire. It was pretty awesome. But trained up the guys, deployed December of 16 and came back, I think September of 17 from Mosul and then competed Special Missions Unit Board, got selected to be the CSM of the STB Special Troops Battalion in the regiment. And then I was STB from 18 to 20, was asked to compete for the RSM duty position. And then I was the RSM from 20 to 22, retired out of that position, had a bunch of leaves saved up, and, you know, just ended up, I think 1. February 23rd was my last day in service.
[00:13:51] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:13:51] Speaker B: That was career in a nutshell.
[00:13:54] Speaker C: That was a very long and distinguished career. And I'd like to go back and revisit something you mentioned during your description. You mentioned the Abrams charter. Can you explain what that is to our audience?
[00:14:04] Speaker B: So in 1974, 1st and 2nd Ranger Battalions were formed. The army was in disarray coming out of Vietnam, and General Crichton Abrams formed the battalions so they could basically go soldiers and NCOs could go to the battalions and get training and learn tactics, techniques, procedures. Do it. Do one tour there. Do A couple two to four years there and then rotate out to make the army better.
And then Iran happened, Eagle Claw, Charlie Company 175 was involved with that.
And then Grenada happened. And after Grenada they figured out they needed a new they redid all of saf, they figured out they needed another battalion. And if you talk to anybody from 3rd Battalion they would tell you it takes three to get it right.
So they stood up 3rd Battalion and Regiment in 84. And then since then NCOs primarily officers. So the officers coming to the Ranger regiment are all second time off, second time duty position folks, minus a couple things. So if you're a platoon leader in the range regiment, you were a platoon leader in the army somewhere successfully, then you put your packet in, you come, you get assessed and selected and you're a platoon leader in the Ranger regiment and you'll end up being being an xo and then you go to the captain's career course and then you'll have to go out and command somewhere in the army successfully, put your packet in, come back, go to RASP2 and then command a Ranger company.
They're all second time duty position folks minus the field grade officers. Eilee RASP is one and done. You're a first time major in the regiment.
[00:15:37] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: The battalion commanders are second time battalion commanders.
And the exception is all the regimental commander is a first time brigade level commander.
Successful Ranger battalion commander.
[00:15:48] Speaker C: Do you think that's a useful model for the regiment and for the army?
[00:15:51] Speaker B: Oh absolutely. It makes the regiment better because you got to go out and basically show up somewhere where you didn't grow up with folks and prove yourself every day. And then the other thing for NCOs General Carilla and Sergeant Major Rick Merritt when they were the RCO RSM, I think RASP2 came on again. Like if this I think was 2009, that's a long time ago. I think 2009.
Basically RASP2 was only if you left. So if you're an NCO and you hadn't left and you went to rip, you basically stayed there as long as you had a job and didn't get fired. Well in 2009 they changed it to where if you wanted to be a platoon sergeant and even if you hadn't left, you had to go as a card carrying, scroll bearing tab having NCO to be a platoon sergeant, you had to go to RASP 2. It's the best thing that ever happened to the range regiment. And then you went back and you had to be a Successful platoon sergeant. And if you wanted to be a first sergeant, you had to go back to RASP2 and successfully complete RASP2 and then go back and be a first sergeant.
So you had, you had to. And people didn't pass. There were people that didn't, that didn't evolve into institutional type folks.
Just because you're a good squatter doesn't mean you're going to be a good platoon sergeant.
Just because you're a good platoon sergeant doesn't mean you're going to be a good first sergeant.
[00:17:08] Speaker C: Absolutely right.
[00:17:09] Speaker B: And that, that single handedly changed the Ranger regimen for, for the good.
And I was the, I was the Ops Ops Sergeant Major in title at the STB, the, the unit running RAS 2.
And at the time I had to step out of meetings because I went to, I think the second RASP2 class where E8s had to master sergeants had to go back through. So they would have, it would really tick me off, you know, like they're like, step outside, Donnie. And at the time, you know, there was some gnashing of teeth and complaining and people didn't probably see the value right at the time. Regiment had either taken over or was taking over after the JTF in Afghanistan.
And the regiment was asked to do a lot of heavy lifting in the gwat and it ensured the right people were assessed and selected for continued service in the Ranger Regiment. And again, I'll say, I'll say it again, it's the best thing that ever happened to the Ranger Regiment. On one video saying, we had a panel with Mike Holland, Stan and Crystal and some other folks a couple years ago down at Fort Benning. But if you show up to the Ranger Regiment at any point in time you think you've made it, you gotta leave.
You're assessed and selected every day in the Ranger Regiment. It's one of two units with summer release authority.
So basically if you're not doing what you're supposed to do, someone's going to talk to you. If it's egregious, like no one's talking to you, you're just done. But if it's not egregious and it's just you do a bit of rehab, whatever you're. If you got hurt, but you get hurt, double your profile. You got to maintain Ranger standards, which are army standards, plus you know some other stuff. And you either do or you don't and it's meritocracy. You dorito. Everyone from PV2 Donaldson in 1996 to the regimental commander had the same fitness standards. Everybody has the same assessment selection pipeline.
And unlike other SOF units, again, you shouldn't build yourself up by putting somebody else down.
[00:19:03] Speaker C: Right.
[00:19:03] Speaker B: I'm just highlighting a difference. Every person wearing a scroll and a tan beret in the 75th Ranger Regiment went to the same selection.
Doesn't matter if you are infantry or an HR person or a mechanic or any MOS. You go to the same RASP1 and the standards are the same.
Same with RASP2. Doesn't matter if you're coming to be an infantry PL or the medical officer. You're going to the same RASP too. And that is not the case throughout. It's because, you know, because of their mission, they're supposed to, you know, no notice, period of darkness, go see, secure wherever. And everybody on the mission has to have a base level of functionality in combat arms.
[00:19:47] Speaker C: What does that do for the culture of the Ranger regiment? That every Ranger has done the same training.
[00:19:54] Speaker B: There's no second class citizens.
[00:19:55] Speaker C: Right.
[00:19:56] Speaker B: Everybody is held to the same account. It's a beautiful thing. Like if there's young folks listening to this, put your packet in and go touch the magic. It's just a beautiful thing. Everyone is treated equally.
It doesn't matter if you're down in the support company or if you're in a line company.
There's just value in everybody being held to the same account, the same standard. It doesn't matter if you're wearing a tambourine scroll. Everybody knows that you went through the same thing they did. Now once you get there is a little bit different, sure, but the baseline standard has been set and you're continually assessed. The infantry guys don't have a different pipeline to stay than a support mos. There's no support Moses. They're all Rangers. And it's just, I don't know, it's really hard to describe.
It's a really good. It's a really hard place to be.
Like two things can be true at once. It's a really hard.
There's not a lot of harder places in the army to work because people are super judgmental.
You're assessed every day. And if you screw, I still call my buddy. I won't say his name on the podcast. We were staff sergeants and he had. He took a knee during a formation with the national kellers in like 2000.
Two. One, two, two. I don't remember a long 25 years ago.
And when it's hot in the summertime, I think about it and I Call him and remind him that he took a knee with the national clerks.
[00:21:18] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:21:19] Speaker B: And if I have some old ranger buddies listening to this, they're going to know exactly who that is. He's a good friend of mine.
But it's like, it's a super judgy place. For good reason. For good reason. You got to perform.
[00:21:27] Speaker C: Yeah. The stakes are very high.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: As brave.
[00:21:30] Speaker C: That's right. I think that's an interesting way to do it. I spent some time in the soft community as well as a support guy. So I was in fifth grade, 160th and JSOC and fifth group for the enablers, the support guys, it's an easy army gig. So you get knees of the army results and they put you in different color hat. There's a very distinct divide. Whereas when I went across the airfield the second one 60th, I had to try out. I had to assess. I had to go to green platoon.
[00:21:54] Speaker B: You get some skin in the game.
[00:21:55] Speaker C: That's right.
But for me as a support guy,
[00:21:58] Speaker B: that ear means something.
[00:21:59] Speaker C: That's right. And for me as a support guy, going into that. That unit, they knew that I had to do something hard to get to the unit. And I was accepted as a night stalker in a way that I wasn't as a member of fifth group and then JSox the same way you got to try out to be there and assessments ongoing.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Well, there's been pushes back when Mike hall would be a good guy to have up here, but every once in a while they're like, they'll try to pick somebody for a job and it's like, hey, the guy guy's great, but he can't pass the standard events.
Is he a good leader? Absolutely right. But he can't pass the standard events. Then you'll have next higher headquarters. Like, why are you. Why do you guys do this? Like, why does the RSM have to run five miles in 40 minutes? Why does the RCO have to run five miles in 40 Minutes? Because that's the standard.
[00:22:43] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:22:43] Speaker B: And you can't lead people if you can't maintain the standard. I can't do it. Were there days that I woke up in the morning and couldn't do 5 and 40 as the RSM?
Probably not. You know, there's some. You get older and you're like, you have a pinch nerve in your back. Wake up and. But, you know, give me a. Give me a minute to limber up and.
But this is going to sound braggish and it kind of Is. But I was running, you know, Mike hall ran faster than me. I told him my time and he was like, I beat you, buddy. But I was running 32s as the Arsenal in my 40s. And Todd Brown ran a 29 something. The RCO was running 29 something, five miles max and fitness test. Because these young people don't care if you're the RSM or not. Can you or can you not? Will you or will you not? Like, can you do the job? The three things you ask folks coming there is one, can they do the job?
Two, will they do the job? And the third, all three things being equal, equal thirds, is will they fit in. Because there's some high performing people that don't belong on any teams because they just, they're just not. They are the poor fit.
And you know, you'll routinely hear that, you know, will they do the job?
Or I'm sorry, can they do the job? Will they do the job and will they, will they fit with the team? That's kind of the three metrics with a bunch of other stuff. But if you can't answer those three yes, then they don't belong there.
[00:24:07] Speaker C: I think those are three great buckets, especially the last one, because there's only so far that a fast run time and a close haircut will get you.
[00:24:14] Speaker B: Yeah, there's like super fit guys that couldn't lead anybody out of a paper bag.
But you can't lead and not be fit. Yes, it's. It goes one way, not the other.
[00:24:23] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:24:24] Speaker B: No, like platoon leader, you know, you can't be falling out of Unirons like you got it. You can't be out of breath on the radio. Like your cardio has to be on point and you have to. Are there good leaders that aren't physically capable?
Yes, but probably at GM or Ford or name a corporation. If you can't keep up with the guys, you have no business. And at least the infantry or any combat sort of soft like you can't. If you can't be up front and not be out of breath on the radio, you have no business being there.
[00:24:57] Speaker C: Before we started recording, you and I had a discussion about likership versus leadership. And I think this might be a good place to inject that. Can you talk about what those things are? What the differences?
[00:25:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I've got kids. My oldest son is 20, my next oldest son is 18 and my daughter's 15.
And I think culturally and again, you don't want to beat up the current Generation of folks because they're signed up for the service and they're here doing great things. But culturally, I think some folks get likership and leadership confused when you show up the platoon. If we're talking about platoon leaders, step one is your platoon's got to respect you. And respect comes in core competencies, army values, physical fitness. Are you a competent leader? Are you a good human being? Like step one? And over time, when you show your platoon one, you know, we talked about it earlier, you got to care about your platoon like they're your folks. Like you got to look after them. You got to hold yourself and those guys accountable. And over time, you know, when you show up, they're going to respect the rank. At some point, they're going to respect the human behind that rank.
Just general military authority and courtesy.
But as time goes on, they're going to get to know you as a person. The friendship thing is going to kind of, you know, at some point it's going to happen naturally. If you show up and you want to be liked and not respected, it's going to go very poorly for you because you're going to make, you're going to make decisions based, you know, you're going to be crowdsourcing decisions versus making the hard right decision based on response from your guys.
[00:26:25] Speaker C: I want to have one more discussion with you about culture before we move into some specific stories about your combat experiences.
So you're talking about culture, how important that that is in organizations, especially in an elite one like the Ranger Regiment. I'd like to take a step back and talk about the culture of three Charlie. And you mentioned that you came from there, but a lot of other really renowned leaders in the Ranger Regiment came from that as well. Was that coincidence what happened there?
[00:26:52] Speaker B: So it was absolutely not coincidence.
You can't ever discount culture. When folks show up to work, they got to want to be there, not because they have to want to be there, not because they're made to be there. At the time I showed up, 96, I think December, December, December 19, 1996, to 3rd Platoon, Trolley Company 375.
And when I showed up, General Eric Carilla, this retired CENTCOM commander, was my company commander.
And we had first run Calpena and we had good platoon sergeants, good platoon leaders, and we were perpetually doing some competition combatives. We did, you know, squad half marathons for like a day off or something.
And it was just a really competitive place to be.
It was a really hard place to be because you, you Couldn't make a lot of mistakes, and still you could make honest mistakes. But if you, if you, if you made some egregious mistakes, you. You weren't sticking around. But it was a type of competitive, type of competitiveness that, you know, if your buddy stumbled while talking, you reached down and picked the guy up and continued to talk shit while you drug them across the finish line. It was a healthy, competitive kind of spirit. It wasn't enough because you can be completely unhealthy with competitiveness as well. You know, the step across your dead grandmother to win something is like the unhealthy kind of version of that. But as time went on, we had, I think most of the commanders, if not all of the commanders were from West Point. I think they all were West Point commanders. The first sergeants were all great folks. We had good platoon leaders, most of which were from. From the academy here.
And it was just a competitive spirit. And all those young enlisted folks grew up, and then they were all sergeants and staff sergeants together.
It was just a really special place because the leaders above us in the company just set the environment.
The environment and culture totally matters as much as being tactically sound. Like you can't have one, but not the other.
So Fast forward in 2005 to 2007 in 3rd Range Battalion, at the time, there were nine line platoons. Eight of the nine line platoons platoon sergeants were from Charlie Company.
Five of the eight platoon sergeants, 05 to 07 were from 3rd Platoon, Charlie Company.
That same core group of guys that grew up fast forward late 09 to 2012, most of those guys from Trolley Company were 1st Sergeants and 1st Ranger Battalion, 2nd Ranger Battalion and 3rd Ranger Battalion.
Fast forward to kind of 2014 to 2016.
It's a pyramid, right?
Those guys were the op sergeant majors of the Ranger Regiment.
And then 18 to 20, those guys were all battalion CSMs.
And then 2018 to 20, Mike Allbaugh was a three trolley guy. He was the RSM, the 18th RSM.
And I want to sound as humble as I can. I'm just trying to paint like I don't sound like a jerk here, but. And then from 20 to 22, so you had two back to back RSMs who were squad leaders and squad leaders in the same platoon. Wow. I did the invasion with Mike Allbaugh. I was a weapons squad leader. And when he went up on objective Rhino to make entry, my machine guns were covering his advance to the objective.
And you know, it's weird, Back to back RSMs.
[00:30:16] Speaker C: Amazing.
[00:30:16] Speaker B: Pretty neat.
[00:30:17] Speaker C: That's a lot of NCO firepower coming from that one small group.
[00:30:21] Speaker B: It was all culture. Culture and standards because it was. Charlie Company is a really, really hard place to work. I think the platoon that I was in, Dennis Smith, would be able to tell you. My platoon sergeant at the time. Still talk to him.
I think it was 60. Some folks, they got kind of sent down the road in a couple years. Okay. It was kind of a revolving door. You either did or you didn't. And you show up to work every day. It's a little bit unhealthy. It's also healthy. Look at what it produced. But it's like, well, I hope today is not the day.
Because of that, people rehearsed, you know, blindfolded, you know, assemble disassemble functions. Check. People were perpetually doing crew drills with their weapon systems.
It was just like you. You wanted to be on your A game and to. And to go back a little bit.
Where I talked about RASP2 and the NCOs. Again, I don't want to speak poorly about previous generations, but there was a. There was a marked difference in the Ranger Regiment once RASP2 stood up, I think, in 09. And you had to go back to be a platoon sergeant, and then you had to go back to be a. To be a first sergeant. Even though you hadn't left, you couldn't. The good guy clause was not. None of it like, hey, he's a good guy. Well, there's plenty of good guys.
[00:31:33] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:31:33] Speaker B: Can you. Can you meet the standard? Can you exceed the standard?
Have you grown? Like, the institution needs you to grow in this organization, and then you just kind of cut the fat along the way.
[00:31:46] Speaker C: Kurt, before we start recording, you mentioned an experience you had in Arghanab Province in Afghanistan, and I'd like you to unpack that for an audience because I think it's an excellent window into some overlooked aspects of leadership. Can you share that story with us?
[00:32:00] Speaker B: Yeah. So, quick war story.
We were out of Kandahar.
We were doing. We're doing a raid, and we had 1 60th flying that night. I won't say any names, but Pete and Jason. Pete was in lead. A correction. Pete was in trail, Jason was in lead.
And we started getting hemmed up about six minutes from target, and it was pkm, Dishka, rpg.
And I was plugged in. I'm a lefty, so I was. I was over top of the back right 240, and the minis were hot. The 240s were hot.
And it was just like the entire, you know, the entire area came out to shoot at helicopters for fun that night. It was a pretty wild ride.
It's a core memory because Jason was on the radio calling out, I'm not a pilot. He was calling out threats, whatever. He was defending, they were calling, defending.
And the minigunners were just letting everybody have it. The 240 gunners were doing, giving everybody the business on both, both aircraft. And the whole time Jason's voice never wavered, never cracked. It was monotone. And he was just in it to win it. He was just doing, just doing work.
And we landed, I was on dash one. I don't know if we clipped the wall or just missed the wall and landed. The ramp wouldn't go down because it was kind of stuck on a mud wall.
And we were getting. We had machine gun fire from the wood line. I don't remember the car, the wood line left. I don't remember the cardinal direction.
We had a guy, I'll call him. Stu was our JTAC and we had hog and support a 10 by 2 by 810 and his, his 9 line. And they followed us in. So they had, they had situational awareness. But his, his call for fire, his nine line cast that night was like, you know, 1.5 lines. It was, you know, wood line west cleared hot and people stopped shooting. With hog, you know, a 10s, I can't say enough good thing about a minus 10s. But hog came in dash one, dash two burned the wood line down. Dash two landed and bounced. And again, I wasn't on dash two, but I think they think the probe got bent and the fuel probe got bent and the EOs got knocked off.
And then we ended up hitting the target in kind of a running gun fight. Clearing the target. Jason and Pete flew back to Kandahar and switched birds. And then they came to, came back in the Gitis and we did, you know, the Vietnam guy would probably call it mad minute on. We were basically suppressing from the lz. We fired a couple goose, he airburst and you know, we forgot to tell the 1 60th guys they weren't super happy. Super happy in the AAR afterwards, like, hey, if you're firing a goose, maybe let us know when we're short final.
They may have shit their pants maybe. But after everything, you know, that happened earlier. But anyways, they come in, they picked us up. I got back on dash one.
My spot was rear right hatch and we pulled the bubble Windows out and on the lz, nothing against saw gunners, but we, we passed the saws off to sergeants.
We put, put saws in the bubble windows that we pulled out and basically we lifted off. And there's some widget that controls. If you're a pilot, you're going to know what I'm talking about. But there's some widget that controls the power, power balance of the, of the two engines and whatever that was malfunctioned. So we're down the one engine and we were at max acl. So we ended up flying back through that stuff at BMNT.
50ft, 50 knots.
[00:35:28] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:35:29] Speaker B: So we had two, we had two minis going, all my sergeants in the window with, with saws and, you know, guys, Rangers supporting the 240, Gunners in the back firing. It was like a beautiful death blossom flying back to Kandahar. And we had just enough power to do a rolling landing back at Kandahar. But at no point in time in the radio traffic did Jason break character. And neither did Pete. And I've always respected 1/60 and I think the world of those guys, but it was just, I mean, the lesson learned is like in chaos, be calm.
I mean, Jason was colder than a polar bear's toenail.
I mean, it was just. I'll never forget it. It's a core memory. It's just, I mean, a lot of bad was happening aircraft. Like the aircraft was taking rounds. They weren't missing. And luckily no, we were behind the fuel tank, you know, guys were behind the fuel tanks. And those can't say enough good things about the crew chiefs. Those crew chiefs were just burning, burning folks down with the minis and 240s. And they're fairly accurate, those guys.
And it was a pretty wild night. And that 1/60 guys performed as briefed plus or minus 30 anywhere in the world. And they're just. Everyone has heroes and they're heroes of mine, so.
[00:36:44] Speaker C: Amazing.
[00:36:44] Speaker B: That's a quick story, I guess.
[00:36:46] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great one. Especially given what leaders should be doing in combat. And I've seen many times leaders not have that same reaction. People get panicky on the radio, they start yelling.
[00:36:57] Speaker B: You know, if someone starts getting wound up, you know, the squad leader starts yelling, then the team leaders start yelling. Next thing you know, the saw gunners yelling. And it just, you know, take a breath, figure out what's going on and speak clearly into the radio with, with guidance.
[00:37:11] Speaker C: It seems pretty amazing that there weren't frankly a mass casualty situation you described coming back and beam t begin morning, 9 o', clock, twilight. So the sun's coming up.
[00:37:21] Speaker B: Those 47s are some tough birds.
I don't remember if those birds.
We sent three. And again, this is a long time. This was 15, 16 years ago that we sent three 47s home that summer that were damaged beyond repair.
I don't know if it was those that night. I couldn't tell you. But we definitely had three birds that were shot beyond repair that doing raids that summer in Team Merrill.
[00:37:44] Speaker C: So you served more than a dozen times in Afghanistan, and you also served a handful of times in Iraq. Did you see a lot of differences in those two theaters in the types of things you were doing and the enemy you were fighting?
[00:37:57] Speaker B: Yes. So you may want to edit this out. But dangerous. A lot of fun, but dangerous. Iraq, it was more cqb. It was more urban kind of fighting. I mean, they had the VI. The guys at Bragg were doing VI stuff. And I was there in 06, if you got time for another story.
[00:38:15] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:38:16] Speaker B: 06. Down in Baghdad at the MSS, we were chasing Zarqawi. Amz, who was the number one at the time, PL and I, we had two platoon. Mike Albal was the other platoon. They moved to Balad.
So basically we have one platoon doing day and night ops. I ended up with 13 kidney stones that trip because I was drinking Red Bull by the case to stay awake. So that was pretty rough getting surgery after that drip. But they had a list. The intel folks had a list, I think, of 10 things. Again, folks, if you're listening, this was a long time ago. There's a list of 10 things. Best recollection, I don't remember what they were, that we got woken up, my po, West Point Officer Justin Henry, and basically told someone to the next higher talk. And we went in there and I think they were at like, I think four on the list.
And then we watched a heavyset guy dressed in black walk out on a cell phone in the driveway.
And they very quickly ticked off the next 10 items.
And then there was a little bit of a snafu with fighters inbound dropping bombs before a ground force was ready.
So 1/60 with the unit went there. I think they landed in contact. They fought their way through.
And the last thing AMZ saw was a US Soft member before he expired when they were loading him on the ambulance. But that night, we set a task force record that night. I think it was 17 raids that night. And it was all flavors of the rainbow out Blowing charges. And. And we basically rolled the entire network up in Baghdad.
[00:39:49] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:39:49] Speaker B: Based on, based on the amc probably intel collect.
[00:39:53] Speaker C: So that was driven on the stuff that got on the objective or was it. Were these people playing targets?
[00:39:58] Speaker B: Okay. It was all, I think it was all any eyes. The stuff he touched that day, transit. And again, it was a long time ago.
[00:40:04] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:40:04] Speaker B: That wasn't intel at the time, but I think it was a combination of all. It was the target that they hit, everything he touched driving to his last known location and kind of all the intel over time tracking him.
17 is I think the right number.
[00:40:19] Speaker C: That's a lot. That's a lot of moving pieces.
[00:40:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:23] Speaker C: You spent an extensive amount of time in the Ranger Regiment. How have you seen the regiment's role evolve? Especially in terms of interactions with other soft units, the functions that the regiment serves now.
[00:40:37] Speaker B: So regiment, back when I joined you would do your own training raids and stuff like that. And then you would see other soft folks at J Rexs and that would be about the only time you see them. Now folks are really cross pollinated.
Some of the battalion commanders are from other SOF units. The gwat. The amount of work for GWAT required the regiment to go from kind of a support and there's still support for smuse. But when asked to do so, but it went from like, hey, let's go, we're going to go pull BPs for a SMU.
You know, now they're doing their own stuff and still maintaining that, that job as well.
And there are folks from Regiment LNOs all over the place with the interagency staying all tied in. And basically they grew up, they grew with GWAT because of responsibility and the workload required the regiment to become more soft like while maintaining core infantry task.
They're the best light infantry in the world, hands down.
[00:41:47] Speaker C: Yes.
Kurt, I know we gotta get you to your next destination shortly, but I would like to give you an opportunity to talk about what you're doing now in retirement. You're out of the army, you're back in Pennsylvania. What kind of things are you doing to occupy your time and to keep giving back to the community?
[00:42:03] Speaker B: So 95% of the time, my wife Katie and I, we got a cattle farm. We do farm to table beef locally. It's small. I think we're at like 79 head right now. Keeps me out of trouble. We live off a dirt road. My closest neighbor's a half mile away. It's. It's pretty good. I do my best thinking on a tractor, but My, my father in law says the only thing dumber than a cow, it's its owner. So I got, I got a fleet of cows that never let me down. They're always doing something dumb, getting their head stuck or getting, you know, they're just, I don't know. That's why there's a reason why people eat cows.
But on top of that I, I'm involved with some mentoring with three Rangers. Mike Hall.
We try to provide opportunity for guys in the community.
My best phone call in a week is, is some old ranger guy or someone I serve with calling and asking for help either for them or somebody they know and then figuring out how to help them. I do some consulting work with Republic Mission Systems. We basically find good people and good things and make sure the right people know about them.
And then I do some training on the side with sof basically providing backside support training wise. And I won't mention clients or whatever but. And some due diligence with an old West Point guy, my old Pl, Doug Philippone, he runs Snowpoint Venture Capital. Super, super good guy. And I'm a very West Point. To give a speech at the infantry ball.
You can, in retirement the guys who have the most issues I think kind of go off and don't stay tied in.
[00:43:28] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:43:28] Speaker B: And honestly I guess if you're asking like advice these days for folks is just, you know, stay tied in with the network. You know, every, every organization they kind of have signal chats or means of communication get tied in. You never know if someone's having an issue and he may be a town over and you know, someone might reach out and ask you to go help out or provide a job opportunity. The networks these days are pretty good for you know, and for good, for good causes out and about. But that's, that's in a nutshell but farming 95% of the time.
[00:44:04] Speaker C: Last question.
So you're going to be giving the speech tonight, the keynote speech at the Infantry Ball at West Point. This is a much anticipated event for the cadets who are branching infantry, of course. Can you give us some insights in the kind of things you're going to talk about and maybe some advice for not only infantry commissionees, but people that are seeking to join the army, young enlisted personnel. What kind of things you're going to talk about? What kind of things do you want them to take away from your speech?
[00:44:33] Speaker B: So the things I'm going to talk about are here's my surprise, here's my surprise face. It's going to be, it's going to be standards and discipline.
Retired Sergeant Major, what else would I talk about?
And culture, right, because they all go hand in hand.
Whatever you allow is the new culture. Like when you walk past stuff, that's the new standard. And it's going to be basically best practices. The speech will be on best practices. I've seen platoon leaders that were successful kind of implement, implement. And one of it's called, I mean, one of the thing is culture.
Are you providing the right culture? One, you know, in your personal behavior, are you, are you an example to lead?
And two, or you know, what, what do you expect out of the platoon? Have you counseled your platoon sergeant to tell him how you see the unit and, and what your expectations?
You know, the number one of the number. I think the number one reason for failed relationships, if you talk to the chaplain, is failure to communicate, right? And you got to communicate with your NCO counterpart. And then if something doesn't go the way it's supposed to go, you know, Brandon Tagmeier is the CG at the 82nd West Point grad. And one of the things he used to say loosely, I don't remember the exact phrase, but it's like, hey, when things aren't going correctly, like step one is, look in the mirror. Did you communicate clearly? Did you give the right guidance? Were you out of position? It's not like, hey, let's sit around and do some blamestorming and figure out who's, you know, what donkey to pin the tail on. Like, if you're in charge. Step one is like, what could I have done better?
That's going to be the genesis of the speech. It's along those lines. And there's some funny stuff I'm going to tell a war story about with Jim Marione who asked me to. He was the first guy to contact me and he asked me to come up.
It's going to be good. It's a good story.
But he was the 2D platoon leader. You should have him on your. He's got some good stories.
[00:46:29] Speaker C: I'd love to. I'll talk to him right after this.
[00:46:31] Speaker B: Twist his arm. But it's basically like best practices for platoon leaders.
[00:46:35] Speaker C: Nice.
[00:46:36] Speaker B: It's going to be, It'll be good.
[00:46:38] Speaker C: I think they'll get a lot out of it. Kurt.
[00:46:40] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:46:41] Speaker C: Kurt, thank you so much for your time today. On behalf of MWI's director, Colonel Pat Sullivan, it is my pleasure to present you with these MWI mement.
Good luck with the rest of your visit to West Point. Love to see you back up here again in the future.
[00:46:52] Speaker B: Thank you sir. Appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity.
[00:47:04] Speaker A: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Spear. The Spear is produced by the Modern War Institute at West Point. What you hear in each episode are the views of the participants and don't represent the position of West Point, the Army, or the US Government.
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