Joint Planner for Security Assistance Group–Ukraine

[00:00:02] Speaker A: This is the Spear, the story of the profession of arms, a production of the Modern War Institute at West Point, brought to you by the west point class of 1984. Welcome back to another episode of the Spear. I'm Dr. Charlie Feint, your host and today's guest is Colonel Tiffany Bilderbach, the former J5 for security assistance Group Ukraine. Tiffany, welcome to the show. [00:00:22] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me, Charlie. [00:00:24] Speaker A: Tiffany, we're going to talk at length later on this episode about your time in Security Assistance Group Ukraine, SAG U. But you didn't start off there. You're a colonel, United States army now, but you came in as a second lieutenant. So I'd like to start with a little bit of an origin story. Can you tell us why you decided to join the army and what your path was to getting commissioned? [00:00:42] Speaker B: Absolutely. So I'm a fortunate army brat. My dad was a U.S. army logistics officer. He started an ordinance and so really the army is all I knew. There wasn't any pressure as I was growing up to join the army. But my junior year of high school is when I started thinking about what I was going to do. So I applied for an ROTC scholarship and was selected for a four year scholarship at Marquette University. Another awesome thing, I was recruited for track and got to run track at Marquette at the same time. It was then or when I figured out what school I was going to, I was like, well, I should probably choose my degree. So funny enough, I sat down in the book and chose the degree that didn't require history, which is just really ironic with the path that my career has taken. So that's how I ended up being a biomedical engineer. [00:01:29] Speaker A: What was the aversion to history? That is such an unusual and interesting thing because so many people in the military want to study history, in fact get history degrees. So why, why the history hate, Tiffany? [00:01:39] Speaker B: I don't know. Maybe I didn't have the best history teachers in high school, but maybe because I. I got to like travel around the world and, and live history. Right. And see history as a kid. And so maybe it was less cool to me to sit down and read it in a book. [00:01:54] Speaker A: Okay, so you got your degree. Why did you decide to branch in the branch that you did? [00:02:00] Speaker B: Um, it was a difficult choice. I was thinking about aviation, but then didn't do that because this the. I think it was like eye testing or something. And then it was between engineering and medical Service Corps. I'm a little bit because of my degree in biomedical engineering. Um, I thought I wasn't for sure if this was going to be a career. And so I wanted something that would be transferable outside of the military as well. And so that's why I went with Medical Service Corps. [00:02:27] Speaker A: What was your first job after you got through your basic officer course training? What did you do as a lieutenant? [00:02:33] Speaker B: My first assignment was with 1st Brigade, 25th ID and 28 Field Artillery out at Fort Lewis before it was called JBLM. I had wanted Germany as an assignment, and that whole brigade was moving to Germany the following spring. And so branch put me there knowing I'd be getting to Germany about six months later. And I had actually done CTLT between my junior and senior year of college in Vil sec Germany, which is where the unit was moving to. And so as a second lieutenant, I got to be the Advan battery and really battalion commander at the middle of the summer in 2006, going over there with the first flight. And then we did the whole reception of the rest of the brigade and everyone's families and cats and dogs flew, flew over to Germany. So I was the med platoon leader for them. And then we got deployment orders around the next year. And then I was the S1 and the S9 during that deployment. [00:03:30] Speaker A: What does a medical platoon leader do? [00:03:32] Speaker B: So as a medical platoon leader, it was a field artillery unit, so it was a smaller medical platoon. I had a PA and about 13 medics. And so in garrison, we provided all the medical support for all the training, led the combat lifesaver, you know, training for the rest of the squadron. And then in deployment, the medics were going to be aligned to their batteries, and so we wouldn't have as much like medical platoon type of activities happening. And so that's why then my commander made me the S1. [00:04:03] Speaker A: What year was this and what deployment? Where did you guys go? [00:04:06] Speaker B: So this was 2007, 2008. We started in Baghdad and then ended up moving up to Diyala Province. All the second half of the deployment with 2nd Striker Cavalry Regiment. So when 1st Brigade, 25th ID moved to Germany, it became 2nd Stryker Cavalry Regiment. [00:04:23] Speaker A: I was also in Iraq. 2007, 2008. That was a pretty hot time there. [00:04:28] Speaker B: Yes, it was. Where were you at then? [00:04:31] Speaker A: A lot. Okay, so were you in one spot most of the time there or were you on the road? [00:04:36] Speaker B: So when I was the S1, I was mostly in one spot. But then when I became the S9, I did all the non lethal targeting. Another unique thing was fire squadron. We didn't have a field artillery mission when we deployed so about 90 days out we updated our, our squadron metal and we went in as like a landowning maneuver type of organization. And so when I was the S9 and being a fill artillery unit, they're really good at targeting. And so I was responsible for the non lethal targeting process. And we had a fusion cell. So I worked with the S2 and one of our big things we worked on were like typical projects, but also micro grants. It was right when the transition from SERP funds to ISERP funds. So I managed the Sons of Iraq contracts and all of those different types of soft power things that we were doing in Iraq at the time. [00:05:23] Speaker A: While you're doing that as a lieutenant? [00:05:25] Speaker B: Yes. And then I made captain while I was there. But a senior lieutenant junior captain. [00:05:31] Speaker A: That's pretty interesting. That's pretty heavy lift working with the Sons of Iraq, which are the are the surgeons that came over to work with us. You mentioned being the S9. I think some of our users might be unfamiliar with that one. S1 easy enough personnel, S2 intel, S3 ops, S4 supply. But once you start getting up there numbers, they start getting a little ambiguous. Can you explain a little bit more detail what a S9 is and what it does? [00:05:54] Speaker B: Absolutely. So we did it at the battalion level. We didn't have, we did have augmentation from a civil affairs unit. However, we didn't have any organic really civil affairs capability. So it was the staff function that looked at the non lethal size. So how can we inject money or different types of rebuild a bridge or help with a USAID project and you know, rebuild a school and those types of things that we could infuse the economy and making, working with the S2 to make sure we were helping out the good guys, not the bad guys. So as the S2 was targeting the bad guys, so to speak, in the S9 perspective, we tried helping out the good guys to balance out both the hard power and the soft power in our area of operations. [00:06:38] Speaker A: Did you have any training or preparation for that job before you went downrange? [00:06:42] Speaker B: No, it was quite a bit of ojt, but it was a phenomenal organization. And as the young officer, both the XO and the S3 of our squadron were amazing and definitely learned from the battalion commander. You know, he had the trust and confidence in me, which is really awesome as such a young officer to have such a great responsibility and really have just an incredible experience and you're in a war zone but yet you're still being able to do good things and so we did a lot of with the sheiks, with the government officials. And so I would accompany the commander on all of those types of engagements. [00:07:18] Speaker A: Wow, that's pretty intense. Do you think that that experience helped you out in any jobs you held subsequently? [00:07:24] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. It's kind of crazy how everything seems to come together. To tie it back to most recently, asagu, as I was going over there, I was asked to provide a bio of, you know, the different types of unique things I've done throughout my career that might not be completely evident on, you know, a standard or standard record briefs that we have now, the soldier talent profile. And so I was able, you know, as I'm reflecting back and looking back to the relationships I had with a partner force, you know, all the way back in 2007, 2008. So it's. It's very interesting to see the thread get pulled throughout my career. [00:08:02] Speaker A: Well, you described this war in Iraq as your first deployment. Were there other deployments after that? [00:08:07] Speaker B: I did, so then I did another that was 15 months, a little bit longer, but we went in knowing it was going to be 15 months, so there were no surprises. After that, I volunteered for another deployment. I was with 3rd Brigade, 4th ID out of Fort Carson. And my primary responsibility was the medical planner and the support operation cell for the brigade. And then additionally, based on my experience from my first deployment, I was also given the opportunity to lead the logistics, training and advisory team. And so I worked with 10th Iraqi Army Division and 14th Iraqi Army Division, their maintenance and their transportation organizations. And so that's what I got to do from 2010 to 2011, as we transitioned to Operation New Dawn. [00:08:51] Speaker A: Was that one of the advisory missions that was kind of hot back then, that embedding American personnel to train the Iraqi forces. Is that what you were doing in this deployment? [00:09:02] Speaker B: Yeah, it wasn't like a mobile training team, so we weren't totally embedded. But I was going out twice a week and, you know, rotating between those two organizations we had. It was a smaller team. So like I said, we weren't totally embedded. But it was a piece from the Brigade Support Battalion, the BSB that was augmenting those two Iraqi army divisions on really, the support side of things. [00:09:25] Speaker A: What was that experience like being a medical service officer working with the Iraqis on logistics? [00:09:31] Speaker B: Yeah, it's one thing I've seen. The partner knows if you're competent and they know if you care, and so your branch doesn't matter. I don't remember having a single Iraqi ever ask me, you know, what's your basic branch or what do you do? They're really concerned about if you care and if you're able to help them out. That was the beauty of it all. There's definitely interesting things just culturally that you learn, especially through like amazing interpreters and just understanding how to handle yourself in different situations. If you may get proposed to once or twice out on a mission, but you learn how to handle those types of situations too. [00:10:10] Speaker A: I've got to say I did three tours in Iraq and four in Afghanistan. I never got proposed to. So I imagine. [00:10:15] Speaker B: Okay, well, you're missing out, Charlie. [00:10:18] Speaker A: I'm sure. I'm sure. Okay. And then you've completed this one or was there any other type of professional military education in between there any time that you got to kind of unpack what, what you learned and get ready for the next mission. [00:10:31] Speaker B: Thinking through the timing. So after that deployment is when I went to the captain's career course and then I actually did the 70 Hotel course. 70 Hotel is my specialty. 70 h h being hotel for medical operations and planning. Really, it's like the S3, the operations of army medicine. And so I did that course after that deployment and then was moved to Korea. I was a Battalion S3 for a medical battalion. And then I had my company command time in Korea, which even when I was reflecting back then having a command in Korea, we had the Katusas that worked with us, so the Korean augmentees to the United States Army. And then I did a lot of work with like the Korean military as well. Once again, I got to work with phenomenal partner force. [00:11:16] Speaker A: Well, it seems like much of your career up to that point has been partner force engagement. You started off in Germany and vil sec, then you did two tours in Iraq. And now at the start of your career, you're in Korea. Is that something that you found was enjoyable or was that something you just kept getting stuck in? [00:11:32] Speaker B: No, I absolutely loved it. And reflecting back, most of the first half of my career was spent overseas, and then the second half, I was mostly stateside in some different assignments. But I think too, you know, how I grew up living as a child. I even. I lived in Germany for two and a half years. And even when I was younger, I was actually in Saudi Arabia during Desert Storm. So I guess that's part of my. My story as well. So I've always really been drawn to other cultures and helping, no matter where I'm working, helping make other people's lives as good as I can. [00:12:03] Speaker A: What are some techniques that you found that really helped build the types of relationships with the partner forces that you needed to get the mission done. [00:12:10] Speaker B: Humility and empathy are the two that come to my mind the quickest. Not trying to project any of how we do things or, you know, this is how we do it in the US Army. Most recently, I've used, you know, how we do things in the US army as a means of starting a conversation, just as a way, but to open the dialogue, not to talk about of this is how you should do things. But I think being as humble as possible and acknowledging that we don't always have the right way of doing things. We all see the world through our own straws. So even my experience in the US Military or the US army is going to be different than someone else who might have even had the same assignments of me my whole career. Right. So we are a product of our experiences and acknowledge that and then really everything possible to understand the other person's perspective, understand their culture, understand how they see the world and why they see things differently than we do. [00:13:04] Speaker A: I also spent some time In Korea in 2000, 2002, I was assigned to the 2nd Infantry Division. And in fact I just got back last week from a study mission with Modern War Institute. We went back to Korea. It was interesting to see some of the old bases. Yeah, the experience in Korea was very different than experience Iraq to different peoples of different countries, different climes. What are some of the things that you found most enjoyable about being in the Republic of Korea? Korea? [00:13:28] Speaker B: Talk about brilliance. So one of the kusas that worked for me, he was a. A specialist, I am, I want to say. And he was our medical logistics officer or a medical logistics soldier. He was supporting the expert field medical badge. So EFNB up on the dmz, you know, was like inter. He was going to be a litter bearer to like help out. And he was drawing like four dimensional math on his notebook or something, Maybe it was six dimensions, I don't know, but it was crazy. And I like go up to him and I'm like, hey, like, what are you working on? And he's like, oh, I like mentor my cousin, you know, at night. So I'm like working on some projects. And so the Katusas are absolutely brilliant. And I think the huge lesson in that is the rank on someone's chest is not indicative of their intelligence level or their ability to contribute to the team. Because a lot of the Katusas are like, you know, they're a catus and then they're Going to Stanford or then they're going to Harvard if they're not getting into Seoul University. So absolutely brilliant soldiers that we're able to have in our formation. [00:14:29] Speaker A: I had a similar opinion of the catuses in my unit. So I had secondary divisions, linguist company, we had 98 golfs, I think was MOS back then. So intel soldiers whose job in the army was to speak Korean and be steeped in Korean culture. And we also had a bunch of catuses. So pretty much the only people who didn't speak Korean were the other officers and like the supply sergeant. And I was equally impressed with those katusas, especially in that job because it was considered kind of a prestigious assignment to be in that battalion and work with this group because everybody speaks Korean and if you're in the MI battalion, you're not in the infantry battalion or doing something else like that. So I enjoyed that as well, being with the Koreans. How long were you there on that assignment? [00:15:13] Speaker B: I was in Korea 2 1/2 years. [00:15:16] Speaker A: Oh, that's a. That's a long time. [00:15:18] Speaker B: It was. So I went for a year and then I was hoping to get on my company command time while I was there. And then I was looking at follow on assignments. And since I had gotten there in October for my follow on assignment, I was told there'd be more opportunities if I would stay in Korea an extra six months. During that process, I was interviewing for my next assignment. So from Korea I went to 7 Special Forces Group to be their group medical planner. [00:15:44] Speaker A: What kind of things did they have you do in seventh group? [00:15:46] Speaker B: So seventh group is regionally aligned to South America. And so I ended up only being there 12 months because then I went to Command and General Staff College from there. But really any of the medical support that the group needed, whether it was there doing medical training or if it was things that they needed for one of their deployments to South America or otherwise to centcom. I did go over and support for a very brief amount of time. It was just shorter than a month. The 3rd Special Forces Group planner in Afghanistan, because as the support to Afghanistan was going from a group which has a medical planner down to a battalion level. At the battalion level in Special Forces there's not a medical planner. And so he was covering down on some gaps in planning. And so I went over to assist him for a bit. [00:16:33] Speaker A: And then you said you went on to command a General Staff college. You get your professional military education. So you were a major at that point then? [00:16:39] Speaker B: Yes, I got promoted at 7th group and then went to CGSC. Another perk. 7th group's an amazing organization. But a benefit of coming out of seventh group is I heard about the Interagency Studies program. And so that's a program that run that ran concurrent with cgse. I'm not so sure if it still exists in the same way, but it's ran through the University of Kansas and so I was able to apply to that. Typically, you know, you have to be from the Special Forces community. But I heard about the opportunity and I applied and then they allowed me to be part of the program. So I did the Master's program through KU while I was attending cgsc. [00:17:16] Speaker A: Oh, amazing. What a great opportunity. So you came out of CGSC with an. With another degree? With a Master's degree. [00:17:22] Speaker B: I did. So I went to high school in Leavenworth, Kansas where I'm currently stationed and I went to Marquette and so I kind of got a little flat for not going to ku. And so it's nice to finally be a Jayhawk after I got my master's. [00:17:35] Speaker A: Where did you go after cgsc? [00:17:37] Speaker B: After cgsc I went to the School of Advanced War Fighting with the Marine Corps in Quantico, Virginia. It's a smaller course. It's equivalent the more commonly known thing in the army anyways, the School of Advanced Military Studies SAMs. So there's a program at Leavenworth, but then there's a Marine equivalent at Quantico. And so I attended the Marine version and that's a year long program out in Quantico. And then after that you have to do a utilization tour. So that's when I went to 18th over and Corbeck at Fort Bragg, which is where I was born. And so I got to connect to my roots and have my first assignment at Fort Bragg. [00:18:11] Speaker A: Going to SAW with the Marine. That's a pretty prestigious assignment. So you must have done pretty well in cgsc. [00:18:17] Speaker B: I think I did okay. You're super kind to say that. There's two army officers that go per year to saw and so I was lucky enough to be one of those that was selected. [00:18:28] Speaker A: And you said you were born at Fort Bragg? [00:18:30] Speaker B: I was. [00:18:31] Speaker A: I spent a lot of time at Fort Bragg as well. My sister was born there. I was there when my dad was stationed there, went to high school there and then I was assigned there later towards in my career. So I also am part of the Fort Bragg mafia. So you were assigned to 18th Airborne headquarters as a medical officer? [00:18:47] Speaker B: No, I was in the G5. So coming out of Quantico, I had a branch of material utilization tour and so I worked in the G5. I wasn't the G5, but I was one of the plans officers there. General camera was coming on to be the corps commander at the time and General Brunson was the chief of staff. Both absolutely phenomenal, gentlemen. It was an incredible, incredible experience. And I would say the turning point in my army career. [00:19:12] Speaker A: For sure. I know both of those gentlemen. Not well. Certainly not as well as you do. General McCamro was, was a JSOC when I was there. And then General Brunson came here to West Point and we got to spend some time with him doing some interviews. And he's the reason we got to go to Korea. [00:19:28] Speaker B: Okay. [00:19:29] Speaker A: He invited us out there. So I, I share those sentiments about those two guys. Interesting vignette about General Brunson. We had him in the studio. And my cadet interviewer, who was a plebe doing her first interview with a four star. And he got this hulking man. Even though he's super friendly, he's very intimidating. She asked him the first question, and she didn't know this, but he and I went to rival high schools, we didn't know each other, went to rival high schools in Fayetteville. And the first thing he does is smack talk my school loudly and obnoxiously. So she doesn't understand why he's doing that, why I'm laughing so hard. And she's completely lost control of the interview. Right on question number one. So we appreciated his time and his humor. So, all right, so you worked for those two gentlemen there. What does a G5 do at a core? [00:20:14] Speaker B: So G5, we're responsible for really all the planning for the core. My main task as the planner. So there's a warfighter series that cores go through so frequently. And so I was the lead planner preparing the headquarters to go through the series of those warfighters. They used to be fake scenarios and they turned into more realistic scenarios. And so I had the opportunity to lead the core staff through the military decision making process and ultimately prepare the headquarters for our warfighter exercise. And then subsequently the headquarters was deploying. And so that was tied into all the deployment prep as well. Unfortunately, I then had to go to a key development position in the medical brigade. And so I wasn't able to deploy with them, but I helped prepare the organization to get there. [00:21:03] Speaker A: So what was that key development job that you did after you left the G5? [00:21:07] Speaker B: I was the brigade S3 for 44th [00:21:09] Speaker A: medical brigade, that's another tough assignment. Explain to our audience what the. What an S3 does and what your role was specifically in that brigade. [00:21:17] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So medical brigades are a little unique to like a typical infantry brigade. So all the units within a medical brigade are individually deployable. So from a six point person optometry detachment all the way up to, you know, over 70 medical company that could provide primary care services. And then we also had role threes, which were combat support hospitals, caches, they're now called hospital centers. But we had upwards like over 40 organizations that could individually deploy. And so I help as the lead for operations and I, at the brigade level, I also own the planning piece, so really helps with the training, the operations and the planning for all of those organizations on behalf of the commander and the command Sergeant Major. [00:22:02] Speaker A: How long did you have that job? [00:22:04] Speaker B: I had that job for one year, and then I had another great opportunity to go move up to the Pentagon and work for the Surgeon General. [00:22:11] Speaker A: Wow. What kind of things were you doing in the Pentagon? [00:22:13] Speaker B: I. My time in D.C. was really split into thirds, which obviously you didn't know that was going to happen because none of us anticipated Covid. And so when I first got to dc, General Dingell was becoming the Surgeon General and I got to work on his team as his deputy for strategic, for the Strategic Initiatives Group. I'm really helping organize his engagements, the decisions that need to go for him, help build products, PowerPoint slides and those types of things for him, which was absolutely, absolutely incredible and an amazing opportunity as a major to be working in the Pentagon, because a lot of the, you know, people say you. You get to know how the army runs and really peek behind the curtain. So, yeah, that was. I was excited to be at Fort Bragg a little bit longer than two years. But then, you know, it's one of those things you don't. Don't know what you don't know. And so after I got, you know, the chance to work for General Dingle and be on army staff that young in my career, I realized how lucky I was and super thankful for the opportunity. And then it was around the middle of March 2020, where General Dingell came out of his office and he said, hey, you're gonna go help out hhs. Aspr, this acronym that I was not familiar with. But I quickly figured out I was getting on the Metro and I was going to help the Department of Health and Human Services. ASPR is really the execution arm. It's the Assistant Secretary for Preparedness and Response. It's the execution arm of Health and Human Services. So I got on the Metro. I went into HHS in uniform that Friday. I had an unfortunate funeral to go to on Saturday. But then I was back at HHS on Sunday. They said, go back in civilian clothes because no one needs to know you're a major based on the rooms that you're going to be in. And I tell you what, on Sunday, I had no clue what I was getting myself into. I was standing next to this tall gentleman and I was noticing. This is a really funny story. I was looking at, like, how nice his shoes looked, and I was just kind of, like, looking down at them. I. I had no clue who I was standing next to. And this shows you, I guess, like, how much I don't really pay attention to politics. I just do my job. And someone was like, did you know who you were standing next to? And I was like, no, but those are, like, really nice looking Chucks. I was just, like, admiring his shoes. And they said it was Jared. And I was like, subway Jared. And they're like, no, this is Jared Kushner. I was like, oh, okay. Well, I need to probably figure out who I'm around in this room, so. Talk about having no clue what I was getting myself into. Being trusted with the complete unknown. And then I ended up working there, really, in support of Rear Admiral Schwartz. She was the Deputy Surgeon General at the time, and she was working for Admiral Joy, who was the Assistant Secretary for Health for hhs. And so at the end of the day, there was a few different things I was helping with. I ultimately ended up, I say, supporting the federal testing contract program and all the community based testing sites that were federally funded. I was really their chief of plans and operations. So I did that until the following January. January 19th is when I stopped working there and I went back to work for the Surgeon General again. [00:25:33] Speaker A: That sounds like a pretty stressful job and a very stressful time for our country. What was your day to day like in that role? [00:25:41] Speaker B: Some days I slept four hours. So I wouldn't change any of this. Right. Um, none of it's complaining at all. But Dr. Burks, she had a surge testing program that started around July. And, you know, like, the incredible thing about everything that we did as a country during COVID is the people that were working really hard on it. Like, there was no politics. Everyone was just really working their best to try to figure out what to do. And so I know there's a lot of different opinions on testing and different things like that but ultimately, we were just trying to figure out what we could do best to protect the American people from the whole of government approach. And so one of the ideas we had was, and not, not me, I was part of the team, was if we test more, we'll prove there's more positives and that'll ultimately change behavior. And so it wasn't necessarily like the positive test itself, but it was the ability to show that there's a lot of COVID in a certain area to try to change the behavior. And so Dr. Burks came up with that initiative. There's a couple times I was on emails with her and Dr. Fauci, and once again, I'm like, where am I? They weren't writing to me directly, but they were writing to Admiral Schwartz. But anyways, so I helped manage that whole process. And so the federal testing sites, you know, they would start in Atlanta and they would test in Hawaii, which is a lot of time zones. And so there weren't too many hours of the day that we weren't as a country providing federal support to these testing sites. But it was a complete honor to be able to support the whole government approach, especially Admiral Schwartz. Once again, a phenomenal human being and leader that I was able to learn with. Learn from during our national response. [00:27:21] Speaker A: Couple thoughts on that. First, I'm glad it was Jared Kushner and not Jared for from Subway, because I think sheriff of Subway is in jail. [00:27:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. That's why I was like, I don't even know what to say. [00:27:33] Speaker A: And you also mentioned Hawaii. That's where I was when Covid happened. I was in USR Pacific. And although nowhere near the level that you were operating on, that was a busy time for us as well, being in the. In the jock because operations still have to happen, even though you got to be six foot away and masked up and everything else. Very interesting time to be in the army back during COVID days. [00:27:55] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:27:55] Speaker A: All right, so eventually Covid ended, and I assume that your time in the Pentagon ended as well. Where'd you go after that? [00:28:02] Speaker B: Yeah, so my last, My last third of my time, I helped Defense Health Agency had stood up. And the medical. U.S. army Medical Command. I helped with, like, the restructuring of that. That headquarters. So there is. When I, while I was in those positions is when I was selected for battalion command. And so out of that job, I went to Fort Hood, Texas. I think it was Fort Cavazos at the time, or if it was Fort Hood, then Fort Cavazos. Now. I think it's called Fort Hood again. So I took command of 61st multifunctional medical battalion. [00:28:35] Speaker A: And what does a multifunctional medical battalion do? [00:28:39] Speaker B: So a multifunctional medical battalion is a piece of the medical brigade that I talked about earlier that was at Fort Bragg. So each medical brigade has one of these battalions. And in army, the army health system, there's 10 functional areas. And so a medical battalion provides nine of those 10. So we can provide everything except hospitalization, really, and surgery. So we own or we have, you know, a couple different organizations that can deploy and provide the primary care, optometry, preventive medicine, medical logistics, veterinary services, combat, operational stress control, just a wide variety of medical capabilities. So when I took command, we had 10 individually deployable organizations that could deploy and support. And then we were around the world. We had one company that was in support of Kosovo. We had another detachment that got to go support an exercise in Australia. A majority of our battalion was on the Defense CBRN Response Force mission. And so we were had to be on a recall to reply or to respond to anything that any sort of civil authority would need support within the United States, whether that's a hurricane, whether that's a chemical attack, whether it's flooding. So we had to maintain a higher level of readiness in support of that mission as well. [00:29:59] Speaker A: And where'd you go after that? [00:30:01] Speaker B: After that? So while in command, I found out I got selected to the Advanced Strategic Leadership Studies Program. It's called aslsp. It's under the SAMS umbrella. So the school Advanced Military Studies I referenced earlier, there's three programs. There's AMSP for the majors. There's aslsp, which is the one I did. It's equivalent to the War College at Carlisle or the Naval War College in Rhode Island. And then they also have a PhD program. So I was in the program for colonels. Absolutely phenomenal year. The tagline is a strategic education with a global perspective. Dr. Gorman is the director of that program. So it's a two year opportunity, a little bit of a smaller group of us. So it's a joint program. You also have international students in it. And then some of you, there's different jobs you do the second year, a variety of different opportunities. I was selected to be a SANSA or an instructor. So then I would have taught the majors my second year. However, we were all asked if any of us would want to deploy in support of sagu. And I was the one that volunteered and said, send me. And so instead of being a seminar leader, I got to Go to Ukraine and ultimately teach about 400 Ukrainians. [00:31:17] Speaker A: Instead, let's go in detail about SAGYU and your role there. So let's start with what SAG U is, what the acronym stands for and what sagu's mission is. [00:31:29] Speaker B: Yeah, so SAG U stands for Security Assistance Group Ukraine. There's two organizations. So SAG U is primary, the US part of the organization with some international, some non NATO countries that, that are contributing to the mission as well. And then just down the street that our commander also is in charge of, also commands is the NATO side. So that's in satu. So the NATO security assistance and training for Ukraine, that's the in SATU side of things. So both headquarters really work in tandem. We have a combined plan. Um, one of the main things I did as the J5 was that operational approach for both organizations in support of Ukraine. So advise and assist, helping with support and materiel, helping with identify the different training requirements that Ukraine needs and really do as much as possible from what we can within our authorities to support Ukraine. [00:32:26] Speaker A: How long were you in that assignment? [00:32:27] Speaker B: So I was there for just over one year. It was a one year and a couple days, I think. So I left here the middle of June last year and then I just returned the middle of June this year. When I first got there, I wasn't the J5 immediately. General Syrsky had requested support. So Ukraine was fighting with really over 100, you know, 100 brigades along the forward line of troops to the east. And it was just really not manageable for the current, the headquarter structure that existed, they had different headquarter structures, a little bit more administrative than they had like operational control. And so while fighting, they developed the echelon that we call the corps. So in our US army we have the brigades and then divisions, then corps and Ukraine developed brigades and then corps. Doctrinally speaking for us, a corps is still a tactical echelon in large scale combat operations. And a corps is the echelon that really employs joint effects where you might see the Air Force and the Navy all getting integrated at really the core level. So yes, from our perspective, the Ukrainian corps are more the side, the scope and scale of a division, but capability wise, they still do some similar things that our cores do. [00:33:50] Speaker A: So your role in there, you were on the ground in Ukraine helping them set up the core structure to manage the, the fight on the ground. [00:33:58] Speaker B: Yes. So General Syrsky, he sent a memo to General Buzzard for some help from insatu, so from the NATO SIDE and SAGU to help I guess make their core headquarters more effective or more efficient, maximize this transition, this new C2 echelon that they've developed while fighting and help make them help maximize this evolution of their, this new echelon as much as possible. And so the guidance from General Buzzard is ultimately in the advise and assist base. We're trying to work ourselves out of a job. So it's not meant to build something that creates reliance. It was his guidance was like this needs to be team taught. This needs to be something that we can end up handing over to the Ukrainians. And so it was about a two page memo. We worked in tandem with the in SATYU side and ended up developing an academic program that we. So between the AFU, the Armed Forces of Ukraine, General Staff J7 with the National Defense University of Ukraine, we developed a program, a seminar that brought in Ukrainian officers from the corps headquarters. It was a 10 day, a 10 day program. And then after two iterations of that, General Syrsky and based on the feedback from Ukrainian officers, they said, this is awesome, we want more. And so we actually went to a 16 day, a three week model. And it's so amazing. The National Defense University of Ukraine just finished executing their fourth seminar, our fifth seminar overall. But the fourth seminar there at the National Defense University in Kyiv with them in the lead and they had their graduation just this last Friday. [00:35:39] Speaker A: That's gotta be really rewarding to have put that effort in and see what it's become now after all that work. [00:35:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it's such a phenomenal team with General Buzzard's guidance and leadership. And he, you know, his guidance is to dominate your space, be proud, but never satisfied, you know, and just move out with initiative. And so we all really try to embody his passion for the mission and his guidance and especially with the in SATU side, I think it was just such an amazing thing what we can all accomplish when we're all working together for the goal, the common goal really to help Ukraine. And then, you know, it's also like the politics aside, there was no questions asked even in, you know, it's an education space. And also to me it's really incredible that from General Syrsky and all the Ukrainians we worked with, whether it's an instructor or someone out in the corps, they still have acknowledged how important education is while fighting, you know, they don't have the luxury of years and years of professional military education. One of the gentlemen in the, in the G2 breakout, you know, he was a lawyer three months ago and now he's, you know, on the core G2 staff. And so these corps commanders, you know, they don't have the luxury of relying on officers, you know, like me, that I have gone through, you know, years and years of pme and so everyone's just really hungry for anything that can give them, you know, the advantage. And so when we talk relative advantage and in terms of like, you know, how we talk about it in our, our doctrine for multi domain operations, right? Like this is an example of how to maintain a relative advantage while fighting is to maintain that, that cognitive edge. [00:37:18] Speaker A: What was your day to day life like when you were supporting secu? [00:37:22] Speaker B: So while it was the first few months, I got to be in Kyiv for the most part standing up this program. And then in October I became the J5 for general buzzard as well. And so life was a little bit different based on being in Kyiv or being back at the main headquarters. But it was, I would say what I learned in Kyiv or what I would expect life to be in Kyiv was nowhere near what it was. The people are absolutely amazing. The ones. The lesson I learned is like, no one feels sorry for themselves. No one's like, man, we're living in a war zone, we're going to feel sorry for ourselves. It's just like the resilience and the will is like unbelievable and so super inspiring. Like every day in Kyiv you just like wake up wanting to do as much as possible because no one else is down on themselves. So I'm like, who am I to, you know, I'm fortunate enough to be born, you know, as an American and have the opportunities and the privileges that I have. Like, while I'm here, I'm going to do as much as possible to help, you know, bring, bring some peace to Ukraine. Even if it's just a little bit of education and, and operating or offering a way to solve a problem or it's a one off conversation with someone like on a, on a break. And so the, the days in, um. Keith. Yeah. There were some nights where, you know, where the air alerts and we had to bunker. We had to like go into our bathrooms or something. But it was. Yeah, I don't know how to describe that, but it was like all worth it, I guess. Like it was part of it. And it's not like you're ever like afraid or nervous or upset or feeling sorry for myself. Right. Because, you know, the next day, no matter how late the alert was, you're going to have the Same amazing people, like asking you if you want a coffee at breakfast. And just like, no one is, no one complained at all. Just absolutely incredible. Their will is so amazing. And then back in Wiesbaden, at our headquarters, more of the battle rhythm meetings, working together with the team, coordination with the staff, coordination with Insatu. And one of our primary, I guess, products you could say in the J5 was the operational approach. And I like to, I like to tell my team and I talked to, I said this at one of the strategic off sites with Journal Buzzard. I was like, the J5 is like the bumpers and bowling. And so, you know, we provide the operational approach, which is really the guidance for the organization. And so, you know, if you have an operational approach that you're aiming for and you're operating off of like you might, you might not always get a strike, but you're going to get a pin. Right. If you don't have the J5, you're not following the operational approach. You might just bowl some gutters and we don't have any time for gutters. [00:40:09] Speaker A: Nobody wants gutter balls, no one wants gutterballs. [00:40:12] Speaker B: And so that's why you need a J5. So your friendly J5 is presenting to you the, the operational approach that we should all try to follow. [00:40:21] Speaker A: Well, you're describing a very different war than I imagine you experienced in Iraq or Afghanistan. Certainly different than what I experienced. The Russians being much more capable in terms of what they can deliver at distance. You said that based on your description, it seems like morale was pretty high despite the realistic threat of kinetic strikes on you. Is that accurate? [00:40:47] Speaker B: Absolutely. You know, there's a few. So many experiences and memories that like, stand out. I was, I was meeting with a deputy corps commander and we're talking about some different things that, you know, we could help provide education wise for his core. And he said, you know, I joined the army to fight so my sons wouldn't have to fight. He said, but now I know Putin's never going to get up. So I'm trying to create the army that I'm proud for my sons to join. [00:41:16] Speaker A: Wow, that's pretty deep. [00:41:18] Speaker B: Yes. Like even I don't know how many times I've told people that, quote, and it still makes me tear up and gives me goosebumps. [00:41:25] Speaker A: My interaction with Ukrainian forces has been very limited. When we visited Sagu last summer, we got to engage with some of the Ukrainians there. We spent a little bit time in Lviv with one of the engineer units, but it was pretty limited. Other than that. So it seems to me that they're pretty motivated and dedicated and committed to the fight in the long term. And I was wondering, from your perspective, what were some of the things that the US Provided that gave the most value to the Ukrainians from a J5 perspective? [00:41:57] Speaker B: Well, it's hard to answer that question and not sound a little bit biased in what I was able to do. And we were building up a lot of momentum. So after the core academic program, we were able to tailor the program into, like, staff exercises. And we did one for 1st and 7th Corps, 1st Corps being a National Guard Corps, and 7th Corps being an Armed Forces of Ukraine corps. And they were saying this was the first time, you know, two adjacent corps in combat have done anything, even in peacetime or in combat. So that was. Yeah, that was all led by General Buzzard's initiative and talking to both core commanders and asking them if they'd be willing to do something together. But then both of those corps commanders also acknowledging that it's so important even during wartime. One of the commanders had said, you know, similar to the things that we talk about with leader development, he said, like, self development and whether you're a private or you're a general is one of the most important things that you can. Can do. You can do. Right. That's, like, within your control as an individual. And so I think the. The relationships across the board that we had, you know, you're advising, you're offering, you know, things to think about. Obviously, like, RJ4 was so phenomenal. I don't know how he moved, the types of things he moved to help Ukraine. I was in awe of his work every day. Right. So there's. There's all of the material things that obviously are really, really, really, really needed for Ukraine and all the support that we can provide as a nation. To answer your question, on, like, the more human level, I think it's, you know, for our partners to know, like, we have their back. Regardless of what's on the news, regardless of the political situation, they know that they can trust us to pour our hearts and souls into whatever piece of the pie it is that we're able to contribute. [00:43:47] Speaker A: Other than some of the things you've already described, do you have any other core memories of your time in Ukraine that you think are particularly relevant to the discussion we're having right now? [00:43:56] Speaker B: Yeah, there's, like, a handful that really stand out. So the. The graduation of the first seminar, they have, like, singers, and they played their national anthem, and I remember, like, closing my Eyes. And it was like the weirdest goosebumps I've ever felt. Like I felt like the floor had gone away. I don't know. I've. I've never had that feeling before because the Ukrainians were all singing their national anthem and building up to that. So every more. Every morning at 9 o', clock, there was a moment of silence, and so they played the national anthem with, like, a video of, you know, the destruction that's happened and, like, seeing the pride and the determination in everyone's faces. And, you know, when you talk about, like, humility, it's like, you know, wow, like, like, I better be on my A game because, you know, these Ukrainians deserve, like, my A plus game as much as possible. And I think, you know, all the advisors that had a chance to be part of that would probably say something similar. So just hearing their national anthem and. And closing my eyes and being like, completely lost in the moment. And you know what? Like, we weren't allowed to take pictures and, you know, like, how many more memories you have when you're not worried about taking a picture of it. [00:45:08] Speaker A: That's right. [00:45:10] Speaker B: Yeah. It was just really cool. And so that memory sticks out from, like, the first seminar that I did and then also doing that Staff X with first and seventh Core. You know, we had been trying to do something with first Core for a while, and so finally being able to do that, and we were able to do it out in Nepro, closer to where they were. So they were able to bring. Because it was just two corps. And so the amount of people from each corps was greater versus, at the core, academics. It was a few from each corps that they were able to bring back into Kyiv. And so just the humility of their commander, who is the hero of Ukraine, General Prokopenko is absolutely phenomenal. And the organization he leads and General Masoch from 7th Corps, they're both organizations that I would go fight for any day. And being able to just be part of such a professional and humble organizations that, you know, are fighting every day, yeah, it's. It's undescribable, really. [00:46:04] Speaker A: What are some of your big takeaways from your time there? If you had to sum it up in a couple of bullets, what are some of the things that you think were your biggest lessons learned? [00:46:12] Speaker B: I would say there's, broadly speaking, there's always something to learn. I think that on a grander scale, it is easy to other Ukraine in terms of we'll never fight a home game. We would never be in the Defense that long. We would never fight that way. We wouldn't have the same issues. They're still too Soviet, right? There's so many things that I've heard that it's made it easy to feel like there's nothing to learn there. And the amount of like, respect and like, just profound, I don't know, even the right word that I have for Ukraine, the people, the military members, the men and the women, that, you know, this is their way of life. You know, someone told me, while they're really missing out on life, and I'm like, I'm not so sure, like any Ukrainian would say that absolutely no one wants to be fighting, you know, this existential, existential threat every day. But the way they've had to create learning organizations, one of the cores they have. Not every core is the same. Every core is different. But, like, the core commander owns crowdsourcing almost. They own procurement, they own training, they own recruitment, they own onboarding. Right. And all of this responsibility is on, like the core commander shoulders. And so whether we would tactically fight the same way, whether we geographically would fight in the same place, the way that Ukraine has found ways to keep leaving, to keep living, to keep learning, to maintain the cognitive edge over their adversary, when numbers wise, they might be unmatched, but the way they're their innovation and they, they've been able to stay in the fight force Kuhn to not achieve a single strategic objective yet. Right. I, I reflect back on to battalion command, and maybe this is one of those stories from the pre command course, but it's like, hey, out of an organization, I struggled to get 50 people to the motor pool on Monday, right? And there's no threat. And so like, being like, trying to like, motivate people and like, you know, just looking at the challenges we have in our own military, it's like we have so much to learn from Ukraine that's outside of, you know, tactically, how they're fighting, like how they do the recruitment, recruitment, how they do their branding, how they do their innovation, how they do their funding, how they do their procurement. Right? There's so much more than just the tactical and the technical level ways that they're fighting that we can learn. I mean, how do they motivate their people? I asked the commander, I'm like, how do you, how your people are still smiling? Like, how do you do it? And he's like, well, we don't have an option. Like, okay. But yeah, I'm just really in awe of them. And there's, you know, there's, there's more than just the technical and technical, technical and tactical things of how they're fighting that we can learn from them. [00:48:53] Speaker A: So you wrapped up your time at SAG U. What are you doing now? [00:48:57] Speaker B: Right now I am in the pre command course and I will take command of the Monson Army Health center here at Fort Leavenworth in just short of a month. [00:49:05] Speaker A: What's that like to be in the command program? That's a relatively new development since the time that we've been in the Army. Can you explain what, what the purpose of that course is and what it does and what you're learning from it? [00:49:17] Speaker B: Absolutely. So it's offered a few times a year, I think, like six times a year or so. And so depending on the type of command you're going in, it's a two to three week program. It might be getting another week added here in the next iteration. But it brings together officers and sergeant majors going into lieutenant colonel and colonel level command positions across all combos. So you get to learn from experiences, from those of us that are in the active component, but also that are in the National Guard and also the Reserves. And the amount of expertise and professionalism that you're able to like, share the room with and really learn from each other and learn from each other's experiences, you know, because you. If I've made a mistake, I want to pass, to pass on to the next commander mistakes I've made so, you know, they don't have to make the same ones. So we've had like conversations with the Vice Chief of Staff of the army, the Sergeant Major of the Army. We've had legal classes on things, the do's and the don'ts. In the legal space, we've had conversations how to do risk management, how to cultivate a positive culture, how to maintain accountability. All those types of different things that I've had the opportunity to talk about last week and then it'll conclude at the end of this week. [00:50:29] Speaker A: Oh, sounds like an amazing course. Have you had any interesting topics or conversations in that program so far? [00:50:35] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, it's. I think that we learn a lot from each other, the more vulnerable we are. And so in sharing that, you know, the mistakes that we might have made in our previous commands and being able to learn from each other to not make the same mistake again, I think that's so clutch. [00:50:53] Speaker A: And being able to have that trust in your peers to share those types of stories and say, hey, I screwed this up. What was Your experience like that, I think that's definitely a testament to the strength of the program. So you've got, you've got all the compos there. So you got active duty National Guard reserves, lieutenant colonels and colonels. Do you think this is a worthwhile course for Italian and Brigade commanders? [00:51:17] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. One of the interesting conversations we were having today was about accountability and the culture, the investigation culture that the U.S. army is trying to get out of. So leaders, you know, make the on the spot correction and like having difficult conversations is not always easy. And we're talking about the challenges, you know, and maybe what are things that have evolved. Was it Covid people just got used to not having to have those conversations? Was it the smartphone? People just would prefer to text somebody instead of like, you know, having that difficult conversation face to face but acknowledging, you know, now it's a room full of 06s that we're going into, you know, brigade level commands. And so like, it's our responsibility to be the change agents and to, to maintain that accountability and, and help us get away from the investigation culture that may or may not exist currently. [00:52:12] Speaker A: When you describe investigation culture, do people bring that up? Meaning, for example, you hold someone accountable for something and then they file a complaint against you and there's an investigation. Is that what you mean by that? [00:52:23] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And it does. It deters people from sometimes trying to hold someone accountable. And then there's not necessarily, if someone claims, has a false claim, there's not, maybe not the best process to hold the person who made the false claim accountable. We want soldiers to report issues. Right? We don't want them to feel like they can't speak up. But then it's a minimal number. Right. But some people do just like in anything, you know, might take advantage of this system and process. But we, you know, we really had difficult conversations today about what our role is as colonels in the military to do the right thing. [00:52:57] Speaker A: I think you brought up a good point about accountability as well. That's one of our primary roles as leaders in the military is accountability of ourself and our organization. We're responsible for everything that happens or fails to happen. But it seems oftentimes people try to dodge accountability by not being as fully transparent or truthful on things. Does that ever come up in your conversations? [00:53:19] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, we. This is, you know, a vulnerable moment I had in class today because we're talking about, you know, people not being completely honest and truthful. And I was like, hey, like, who in this room can say that every single one of their soldiers. When you're a battalion commander, get counseled on a monthly basis. You know who in this room can say that Every single NCR you signed had the exact dates of the counselings that happened every single quarter for that nco. You know, we all try really, really, really, really hard to the right to do the right thing. But absolutely no one's perfect, no matter how hard you try. [00:53:52] Speaker A: I agree 100%. Certainly I came up short a number of times in there, despite best intentions. I was in the army for 27 years. I think I had two leaders ever that did any type of counseling with me. One was one of my company commanders very early in my career, and it wasn't until I got here at West Point and I worked for an organization called SCPME that my 06 boss counseled everybody monthly, all the time, like he was supposed to. And other than that, I haven't seen it. And I also came up short on that. But it's a shame that, that people have a hard time doing that. And that leads to things like the, the writing that Colonel Leonard Wong did on lying to ourselves that talks about all of the shortcuts people take and things don't get fixed that way. You don't want to acknowledge it's a problem, then it just going ready. [00:54:44] Speaker B: If you're the only one in the group that's like, hey, I'm at 50% and everyone else says they're at a hundred percent, you're like, come on guys, like be, let's be honest and talk about the friction points that might be preventing us from getting there. And the other thing I just thought of, I do want to say is that another thing we talked about was what's the first thing we tend to like, take off when things get busy? It's like the sergeant major's like lpd, and then the second thing that gets taken off is the battalion commander's lpd. But one thing, if we look at Ukraine, like what are they not doing or what are they not stopping doing? They're continuing professional development. So, like, even in protracted conflict, they have acknowledged how important it is to continue to develop their leaders. So I think that's a huge thing for us to take away as well. Because we say even in these courses, hey, you know, leader development's important. That should not be the first thing that comes off your calendar. But it's one of the easiest things to take off the calendar because it's what's within your control. When you have a bunch of other constraints that are being put on you, the things that come off your calendar are those things that you know you're trying to implement at your level. So those are the decisions that as a colonel in the army, we can, we can be sure to like, err on the side of continuing to develop our people despite any other constraint that's put on us. [00:56:00] Speaker A: Professional development is so important. And that's related to something else that I wanted to bring up with you. You mentioned that the sergeant's majors are in this course with you. So is your sergeant major in there with you or it's just kind of random? [00:56:14] Speaker B: No, it's, it's random. It's based off of PCs cycles. So the sergeant Major and my future command actually changes out this Friday. And so I'll get to know him obviously after I take command. But it's. If, you know, if it lines up, you can try to come to school together. But a lot of times just based off PCs cycles or current jobs, it doesn't work out that way. But I will say we've had some amazing command sergeants major in my class that you're able to rely on and get their perspectives as well. And one of the primary relationships, even at the battalion level was that echelon above you, Sergeant Major, who isn't in your, isn't directly in your rating chain, but tends to know exactly what's on the commander's mind. And so it's always good to, to use the, the sergeant major of your higher echelon as a sounding board. [00:57:02] Speaker A: What a great opportunity to learn from the sergeants Major, but also for them to learn from you all with the different officers. And then you come out of there with this great network of other command teams that you can pick up the phone and call when you have a question or want to make a connection or help somebody else out. [00:57:18] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. There's commands you know, you don't even know exist, especially in the compo 2 and 3. One of the peers in my class, he is, you know, the brigade commander of the National Guard unit that's getting stood up in Washington D.C. and so his problem sets and the different things he's facing, just amazing to learn from him because some people are already in position when they get a chance to come. So yeah, such a wide variety of experience and some awesome fellow Americans to learn from the past couple weeks. [00:57:46] Speaker A: Tiffany, you've had a distinguished and thrilling career. I'm just looking back over my notes here. Spent some time in Germany, Iraq, South Korea, Afghanistan, Ukraine. And you've been in a number of army divisions. You've been in the 7th Special Forces Group, spent time with the Pentagon, your medical brigade, and now you're taking brigade command. What kind of advice would you offer young leaders seeking to follow your footsteps into an interesting, rewarding career? [00:58:12] Speaker B: Always make the decision that opens up more doors instead of closing them. So if you're ever at a fork in the road and you're not quite for sure which decision to make, choose the one that'll open more doors for you in the future. [00:58:24] Speaker A: I like that a lot because I [00:58:25] Speaker B: definitely was not a fan of the school advanced war fighting at the time. It was a very, very big struggle for me. I think I finished all the reading two nights. But then getting to 18th Airborne Corps under the leadership at General Brunson and General at camera, I mean, it completely changed the course of my career. [00:58:42] Speaker A: Very interesting. Okay, well, Tiffany, thank you so much for your time. That was an interesting conversation. We covered a lot of ground. So on behalf of Colonel Sullivan, the director of the Modern War Institute, and for me personally, really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for talking to us. [00:58:56] Speaker B: Thank you so much. Charlie. It's been a pleasure. Yeah. Such an awesome opportunity to speak with you. Thank you so much and hope you have a great night. [00:59:12] Speaker C: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Spear. The Spear is produced by the Modern War Institute at West Point. What you hear in each episode are the views of the participants and don't represent the position of West Point, the Army, or the US Government. Be sure you're subscribed to the Spear on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or your favorite podcast app, where you can also give the podcast a rating or leave a review which helps us reach new listeners. And if you aren't yet following MWI on social media, please find us on Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn. Thanks again for listening.